Sandy Spring Trust does not endorse nor recommend the services of any person or entity not affiliated with Sandy Spring Bank.
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- Hello, everyone, and welcome to Sandy Spring Bank's Real Life Matters discussion series. My name's Phil Fish. I'm a certified financial planner and an estate planning specialist with Sandy Spring Trust and I'm the host of our professional discussion series, when we interview local professionals in the areas of law, tax, finance, and healthcare on various issues. And today's topic, I'm very pleased to have Paul Orsinger, who's actually a friend of mine. I've known Paul for a long time, and we're gonna talk today about assisting clients with their day-to-day finances. Paul is a daily money manager. So, Paul, thank you for taking time to join our discussion today.
- Thank you, Phil.
- Could you take a few minutes and just introduce yourself and help the audience understand what a daily money manager is? 'Cause I think there's a lot of confusion out there.
- There is, and just the term daily money manager can be confusing. I joined the American Association of Daily Money Managers six years ago, and finally, I knew what I was doing all these years. I've been in business since 2003, I'm in my 18th year of doing this and I started it years ago as a personal assistant. I was working with some high net worth clients. They were so busy or they're retired and slowing down and a few bills are getting missed here and there. Mail was piled up everywhere. They had no recordkeeping system. So a daily money manager is someone who comes in and pays the daily bills, whether it's for a person or for a small business, does the recordkeeping, does the budgeting, and then everything from there, especially in the case of a busy household.
- Okay, so as you and I have taught, I work for Sandy Spring Trust and we tend to get named in legal documents as trustee and as postal representative. We're professionally managing assets and we have a full staff of portfolio managers and trust officers, but when we're working with clients, we find that our trust officers cannot do the work that you're doing and your others in the daily money management field are doing because they have a full-time job in their office doing administrative issues and reviewing legal documents, settling estates, all of that. So we find that the partnership is many times necessary, whether it's with the client's attorney, their accountant, us managing the assets, and then individuals like you, and then also individuals such as care managers who might be doing work similar to you, but more on the medical side. So I kind of describe you as kind of a financial care manager.
- That's very well-put. I have used that term, too.
- Yeah, just dealing with the day-to-day stuff of bills coming in and making your charitable contributions and coordinating all the different moving parts and making sure things don't get missed along the way.
- Well, as you said years ago in one of the early transition planning workshops you did or seminars to elder care attorneys, accountants, similar people like me and care managers, is when someone ages, we really need to create a care team around that and that care team is often individuals who are on site, like myself, doing the bills, sorting the mail. Also, the care manager, when caregivers or home health aides need to come in and making those assessments, also making sure the house is safe and accommodating to aging in place. It's that whole care team. I am an aspect of that care team. Oftentimes, though, I am the first one really visiting the house because this couple or this person has lived for so many years very comfortably, very capable of managing their affairs of all aspects, not just financial, and they're starting to have that age-related cognitive decline. They're slowing down and things are getting missed. Excuse me. And I really want to, one of my first things is of course the basics, like are your estate documents in place? You know, the will, the power of attorney, health care and durable. But then I look at it's time possibly to bring in a care manager to do an assessment, just to see if any extra medical help is needed, caregiving help.
- Yeah.
- And sometimes that is a real, I have to be very diplomatic about that because again, when I say diplomatic, I mean with the client and their family.
- Yeah.
- The adult children are so grateful that I'm there, A, because most of them live out of town and they don't have to fly in every month, but B, I'm the eyes and ears to see what else is happening. Is there a kinda, I'll use the word a sketchy caregiver, okay? Who was a family friend, but they've been there so long, they're now writing the checks and he's signing them and he, the client, isn't always cognizant of what he's signing. So I take over that, you know? And so I want to bring in a care manager at some point to do an assessment. And sometimes we just have to say, oh, you know, this person who's worked with a lot of families is coming in just to help and talk with you, what you might need as you age in place because we really do want to have you age at home, you know? And they will say to me, they want to die at home because the last thing they want to do is be in a facility and I can't blame them. So I want to help them do that.
- Yeah. It's wonderful. And I think you're a member of the, is AADMM? I forget what the acronym stands for, but you'll help me.
- Yeah, American Association of Daily Money Managers. And the only reason I haven't lobbied to change it to Association of Personal Money Managers is there's a lot of us who work with small businesses. Even I have a couple of small business clients. Majority of my clients have been aging, but it's nice for the mix-up or change-up to have a solopreneur, too, in my stable of clients.
- And I think individuals that are part of that association have to go through some, is it testing and background checks?
- To be a member, they have to have an extensive background check and that background check has to happen every two years.
- Okay.
- It's a requirement of membership. We have to follow the code of ethics and the standards of practice and we do have a whole certification to become a certified daily money manager, to put CDMM after your name, and that means, of course, then continuing education units or credits to maintain that level, just like a realtor or a financial planner would have.
- Yeah.
- One more thing. It's a new industry. It's only been around less than 15 years. And when I mention to people what I do, I tend to just say the personal bill paying, budgeting, and recordkeeping 'cause when I first say daily money manager, they immediately think financial advisor.
- Yeah.
- You know, that I'm doing what you do.
- Yeah, and that's something that you and I have spoken about is that you're going to work with the clients' financial advisors on the investing, the stocks, bonds, but you can also help the client maybe do some cleaning up of loose ends, which is always a challenge. They have nine IRA accounts and they have 12 brokerage accounts. So then you have the stock certificates on book entry and they're getting dividends from here and interest from here and then CDs start to roll over and when they roll over, they might go into another CD that's paying a very low rate and it's just clients, and to be honest, it's not just seniors. We all struggle with trying to keep a handle on all of the moving parts. And with online banking now, in some ways, it's easier. In some ways, it's more challenging because people forget passwords and it's gotta have, some passwords require capital letters, some require a squiggly symbol thingy, something have to be eight numbers and 12 numbers, and then some want you to change the password. And so at some point, you've got clients have these little sticky notes posted around. It's like, oh, that's the passcode for my banking relationships. Like, okay, maybe not a good idea to have the sticky note that gives access to your bank account stuck on your computer, just as a thought.
- No. That's the other thing and this is a topic of many of the workshops at our annual conference that AADMM does, the American Association of Daily Money Managers, is how realizing that we are the front line of defense often for elder financial abuse and that we're looking for these, like I mentioned, the friendly caregiver who's been there forever and feels entitled to write all the checks, to pay the bills, to be efficient, but you don't know what other checks are being written. It's those things. And as you know, a classic one is the isolated, lonely elder sitting at home, whether it's in a retirement community or in their own home, and someone solicits them a call and then develops a relationship over a month and they look forward to the daily call or every other day call with Joe. And then finally, Joe makes the ask. Oh, my granddaughter is stuck in, you know, and I gotta do $2,000 bail and it becomes dramatic and he's asking for the routing number and account number.
- Yes, and that's the door opening. And it's one of the reasons that Sandy Spring Trust, when we manage assets, whether it's a trust or an investment account, joint account, all of our accounts the same way, is we provide clients the ability to look at the account online. They have, like many accounts, have a log on, they have a passcode, but it is a view-only system so there's no transaction ability and we assign staff to all our relationships. So the client has to speak to someone who knows them to request a transfer to their checking account and the checking account's not tied to the investment account and we don't issue checkbooks on the investment account. Some places do. We don't issue debit cards tied to the investment accounts. So it's kind of a firewall, an airlock, and it's a little old school, but it means the client has to reach out to the portfolio manager or trust officer and say, I need this. And we catch so many, if a 94-year-old client's wanting to buy a yacht in Greece for $3 million, we can kind of delay and set up a meeting and hopefully catch it because once those wire transfers or that routing number and account number is given, you open the door to access, unfortunately.
- You can't get the money back.
- No.
- Very sad.
- So why don't we talk a little bit about a few of your kind of typical clients and some of the things you do in your average day as a daily money manager?
- Exactly. Let me start with what I do in an average day. So I arrive at their home. I go through the mail. I pull out the junk mail. I look at the bills. The bills that I don't have set up on automatic payment, I pay manually, like the co-insurance or copay on a doctor's visit. I also keep those on file. I always keep track of what the health insurance, if we've met the deductible that year, how far we're into that. I do look at EOBs, not every one.
- And an EOB is what?
- Oh, thank you.
- You're welcome.
- Sorry. Explanation of benefits from either Medicare or the secondary.
- Those forms that no one understands, basically.
- Right, that says we paid this much. You only owe this much and here's the check we enclosed for the difference.
- 'Cause what we find is a lot of times, the hospital or medical provider will send a bill saying you owe X and the client just pays it, but then they get paid by the insurance and sometimes they'll let, well, they're supposed to let the client know, hey, we got a little extra balance here, but sometimes they just wait. Well, the client will call us and then when they call us, we'll give them the money back.
- Yeah. Most medical practices are above board that I've dealt with, they automatically just send the extra or the excess back. What was I gonna say? Sometimes you get a bill from a doctor and you just need to wait 15 to 30 more days because insurance hasn't paid yet.
- Yeah.
- But their computer system or billing system just spits it out and some people get alarmed and I thought insurance covers it. Just wait. And sometimes I just make a quick call to the billing office and they tell me, oh, just sit on that. It'll probably come through. Wait for the next bill.
- Yeah.
- Yeah, so it's the medical insurance. Also, like right now, I'm in the middle of reviewing a client of mine who has original Medicare to look at, is it worth it to go to Medicare Advantage for the extra benefits? So far, it isn't because her favorite primary care physician is not part of that.
- Okay.
- But it's worth reviewing every few years at open enrollment. Most times, we just let it re-enroll automatically. Again, it's up to the individual. So I'm paying the bills. If there is a caregiver at home who's not through an agency, like I have with my one client now, she has direct hires. They're all household employees. I have a payroll service that pays them every two weeks. I, of course, still have to call in or go online and enter that payroll. And those are some of the tasks I do. Of course, let's say I get sick and I'm not there to enter the payroll. They will get paid automatically the base amount. I'm just making sure to adjust if there's any extra hours they worked. In some cases, I'm involved with the financial advisor, the state attorney to review some estate issues. In one case with a high net worth individual, her son, who's the POA, one of the POAs, said, Mom, we really need to look at this because there might be with the coming tax law change, that's possible, we don't know, but if it comes through, let's have a strategy. And that was really good because it then led to a series of about three Zoom calls with these parties and the estate attorney, which I was on. Mostly I was on because this client is aging and her memory isn't as good And she just wants me to take notes so I can refresh her about what was discussed, and her son is in California and just too busy raising kids and a demanding career. So it was those kinds of things can happen. I want to shift for a second to a client who was running out of money, who was not a high net worth individual, who had a good federal pension, or excuse me, federal pension, that's what I think it's still called. And she was 84 and she was living in a independent living in DC that was way too much for what she could afford. I did the math and the older daughter, again, living in California, and I said, she cannot live there. She cannot afford to live there. So what we did was we brought in a care manager who knew the market and we knew also that Mom needed to get into assisted living. Her activities of daily living were being affected, the ADLs, activities of daily living, and she needed a little more help. And so with this care manager, we found a place that had a HUD subsidized assisted living space, half the price of what she was paying, knowing that if she did run out of money, they wouldn't put her on the street, that they had a section for that, or that she doesn't move, she just keeps her same apartment, but that the foundation within the community covers it. But I was able to get the VA benefit because her last husband was a World War II veteran, combat veteran, and that was almost enough to pay the rent, at least half of it, so that was a blessing, but it's those kinds of strategies of working with people where they are because even with someone who is a high net worth individual, what I observe sometimes is that they're spending too much on Amazon. Now, I'm not gonna change that, but I can at least them know. I can just run a little report in Quicken, and just say, by the way, this is what you spend on Amazon. I mean, these are necessary, the grandchild gifts, but we already have X, Y, and Z. She just forgot.
- Yeah, and I think a lot of times, you get the pull from children, grandchildren, the kind of request for the early inheritance to help with things. And gifting is wonderful and there are some children and grandchildren who would never ask and there are some who are very comfortable asking on a regular basis. And sometimes, you and I in different roles will serve as kind of a guardian angel, a protector, because they will view us as a trusted advisor to say, my son's asking for $50,000 for his daughter's wedding. And some clients have the financial resources to make that gift and sometimes they need us to be the bad cop to say, well, that's gonna put you in a really difficult situation, and maybe you won't be able to afford these things going forward.
- Well, I'll give you a case on, if I can and that is while doing this estate plan, this new estate plan, planning, I should say, she's looking at whatever happens with the estate tax and that can change any given year at the whim of Congress, right? She wanted to lower it so she was under that threshold where her estate would not be taxed to her heirs, and that means her children and her grandchildren. But she needed to make sure that there was enough money after what was put in the trust, the new trust for her to live and live at home.
- Yeah.
- With the round-the-clock care that she might need. And as a result, I was able to tally up the last year of expenses and we had just started round-the-clock care because of a broken ankle and she was stuck in bed for six months. And it was very enlightening to her to see what that annual cost is.
- Yeah.
- And that informed the financial advisor, the three of us were talking, saying, well, to hope that we get a decent return on your investments, which are doing, as you know, very well right now, this is what we need to be able to take you til age 94.
- Yeah.
- 98, I mean, and both her parents lived into their nineties, so the genes are there, presumably. So it's those kinds of things. And that's what a daily money manager can help do is bring clarity to situations like that. And I'll jump to another client, the youngest client I've ever had. He's now 36. He's the oldest of three. His parents called me in, found me through a referral. And they were concerned that this is the son that never really launched. This was two years ago at age 34.
- Okay.
- Very creative, went to art school, but had no financial literacy personally, who didn't grasp it, I should say. He's savvy in a lot of ways and he's really lovable and he does superhero birthday parties for the pre-teens and young teens.
- Okay.
- He does every kind of Marvel or action hero or Star Wars and he's very good at that and it's a good outlet for him, but he wasn't even thinking about just general week to week, month to month cashflow. And again, Mom and Dad were subsidizing him in terms of paying for his rent, paying for all his insurances for his business. And my whole goal with him is we want to get you self-supporting, okay? It's time to step up to this. And it's just through tracking everything in Quicken for him, having monthly meetings where we're looking at everything that's come in, everything that's spent, and really trying to nail that down, and then him taking on these expenses that his parents were covering.
- Yeah.
- Now he's paying the rent. Now he's paying the insurance. It really covers a broad range.
- It is. It's overwhelming. Even us in the industry struggle with the estate planning, the legal issues, tax, finance, healthcare, life in general. There's so much information out there. Much of it is bad information that you read or you hear and you go, oh, and it doesn't apply to you 'cause when I speak publicly, I always caution listeners, I'm speaking to a broad audience, so please don't take what I'm saying and apply it. Maybe it triggers a conversation with somebody who's knowledgeable about your specific situation and they might count as they were, Phil was talking broadly, but in your situation, that would be a really bad idea because of these issues that Phil obviously didn't know about when he was talking into a little camera with a little light blinking. And so our roles, although different, are very similar. And I think the roles of many of the professionals that you and I interact with, the estate planning attorney, the accountant, the care manager, the financial advisor, the daily money manager, we're all kind of there to navigate individuals to hopefully protect them, help them avoid storms, help them avoid trap doors, the scams, and we hope that they turn to us when they get the call from an IRS agent demanding a wire transfer to settle an old IRS debt. And they're like this and they're great Oscar award-winning actors and they're angry and passionate and scary and dominating and they're trying to get somebody so scared that they're gonna go to jail that they are wire transferring $12,000 to this bank account in St. Louis. And it's a nice hit on the scam. And they say, if we do this 100 times, maybe we get three people scared enough to wire transfer money and that's a good day at the office for us. And it's sad that there are people out there, but there are. And so what we hope is that before they hit that transfer request, they call you or their trust office or their portfolio manager or their financial advisor or their attorney or their accountant and go, I got this call from the IRS and we go, time out. The IRS never calls you. They don't do it that way. And so this is probably a scam. Let's just wait and maybe let's reach out to somebody and confirm that it is a scam, and protect the individual. And it's sad that we have to be walking around with our shields and our swords trying to protect our clients, but that's kind of the world we live in today is there's a lot of fraud and scams and identity theft and sometimes externally, sometimes internally by sadly family.
- Yeah.
- There are cases where the family member, a son, a daughter, or a brother or a sister, a spouse may come in and use influence to direct funds in the wrong way.
- Yeah, and the other thing I want to add for our viewers, as you and I both know, the IRS will never ask for payment on the phone either.
- No.
- It is always by mail. Well, as you and I know, it's all contact by mail. If I call the IRS, sure, but they're never gonna call you.
- No. If people will show up on a door saying I'm an IRS agent I mean, or police, and it's sad that that's the world we live in, but our role, and we try our best to protect, to educate, to tell people, do not give out financial information over the phone, do not give out account numbers, be careful with your credit card information, reduce the number of credit cards you have because you don't need 12 credit cards each with a $30,000 credit limit. Maybe we can just deal with one or two and you'll be fine and keep it simple. So if there's fewer moving parts, there's less chance of breakdown, so just simplify. And I think that's something you and I preach to clients is with financial, estate, tax issues, the fewer account numbers you have, the fewer moving parts, the easier it is to keep track of things.
- Oh, especially as we age. One of the other areas that a daily money manager assists people with that can come up is those busy professionals who are close to retirement age and all of a sudden are hitting the age 62 to take Social Security or to defer that, or they hit 65, they're just charging ahead, still working, and they gotta remember, you have to sign up for Medicare or you're gonna be penalized at a higher rate. So it's those kinds of things. It's something in our most recent annual conference at AADMM that we covered a great expert talking about that, situational social security, 'cause it is situational.
- Yeah. Depending on your age, whether you're married, divorced, what have you, all of that.
- Yeah, we find that, too. I've run across a couple of cases where with the tax laws, there's a law called the step-up in basis where when someone dies, the value of assets gets readjusted to the date of death of the individual who passed away. And many times, a husband and wife or one will pass away and the surviving spouse doesn't realize things like their house should be appraised and reassessed because if they sold the house later, that appraisal is gonna greatly reduce their tax bill and their investment portfolio needs to be adjusted. And in a joint account, if you own 100 shares of Exxon, 50 of those shares are gonna update to the current value, which gives you the flexibility to maybe sell some of those shares without a capital gains tax at that time to realign. And again, we live in this world. It's a bit like if my car breaks down, I pop open the hood or the bonnet or whatever you want to call it, I look in, I have no idea how those things work, but there are people who do, and for them, it's easy to fix. They say, oh, Phil, you had dirt in your carburetor or a loose spot or whatever. Easy fix, but to me, it's all foreign because it's not the world I live in. And I think it's unfair for us to expect individuals to be experts in law, tax, finance, in healthcare, 'cause we're not. We struggle, which is why this discussion series came about through our transition planning discussion group where I would bring together lawyers, accountants, healthcare professionals, and financial professionals and we'd all get together in the room and be confused together and learn from a healthcare expert, a legal expert, a tax lawyer because a lawyer doesn't necessarily understand about care managers and a care manager may not understand how financial power of attorney really works, but we need to so maybe we can recognize a concern where a care manager says, well, wait, your financial power of attorney's 15 years old. We may run into some issues there. Let's maybe get it updated.
- Right.
- Or your trust that you have and notice all your accounts are titled in your individual name or in joint name and you have this nice, wonderful trust document that isn't gonna work the way you think it's gonna work 'cause you haven't titled the assets properly.
- Right. Or the representatives named in the POAs, power of attorneys, are either one is dead, one is in drug rehab, the son is in drug rehab. They're not available.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Yeah. And then if the client gets sick, then one thing we've always preached is a proactive approach to prepare for transitions, prepare for retirement, prepare for illness, prepare for death. And that's where a daily money manager I think can help. So if you're working with a client and their son is named in the documents, well, we need to start getting the son involved because at some point, the son's gonna have to step in. And I think that's why you were saying, and it's true from our line of work and yours, we are a godsend to those decision-makers, the children who are very busy, struggling to deal with their lives. They have children of their own maybe, their own careers. They may not be local. And then Mum or Dad gets sick and there is the sandwich generation that you hear about. My mom or dad is sick. Kids are running around crazy and they've had their own careers and they just get overburdened with this dual responsibility. Well, three ways, you got to take care of yourself, your children, and your parents all at the same time.
- Absolutely, and then throw in the mix, oh, I have a special needs child.
- Yes.
- Okay.
- Yes, or you have a husband who's oblivious and walking around and you're just trying to run everything.
- I mean, I've seen it all. They're in the middle of a divorce, very contentious divorce and the poor daughter or son who's in the middle of that divorce is just not available and yet they're the primary POA.
- Yeah. Yeah, so we've covered a lot. So basically daily money managers, you're out there, you're on the ground floor. You're opening mail. You're figuring out accounts. You're figuring out passwords. You're figuring out.
- Computer security, Phil.
- Yeah, keeping that, making sure things are safe and are running smoothly, bills are getting paid 'cause we hear stories of individuals with money and their electricity gets turned off because they just forgot to pay the electricity bill and then everyone's scrambling. So it's the simple things.
- Everyone's scrambling. And in fact, we didn't touch on it and I'll just do it real quickly. The other thing besides elder financial abuse is cybersecurity. Just making sure there's a good password manager on the computer, that they don't have the 20 post-it notes around their computer, okay? All they have to do is remember one password.
- Yeah, and the nice thing about those passcode systems is then you can really have a high-level passcode on your important credit card, banking ones. It's not just the name of your dog and your address, road number.
- Right.
- It's something that is like, 73.*P, you know, something that no one's gonna think.
- Oh, totally that we would never remember. Just to jump back to something else, and you brought this up years ago in one of the transition planning discussion groups, is you have a client who's had a financial advisor who takes care of all the brokerage accounts and things are just on autopilot as these people are in their seventies and eighties. And the daily money manager is every other month or so, checking these statements and looking for churning. Why are you selling something just to make a commission? And all it takes is one call to the advisor and they see someone's watching it and it stops.
- Yeah.
- And again, these are the shadier advisors. You've probably run into this, too.
- No, but it's one of the reasons I work for Sandy Spring Trust. We're under the federal fiduciary standards. We're all salary. We're audited by the Federal Reserve and there are no conflicts. There are no commissions, no products. There's nothing to cause that issue to begin with and we assign a salaried professional portfolio manager to help our clients who is paid to do that job and that's it. And so it really clears the air. So if a client's in a position that has a taxable consequence, we might say, well, let's fold this 'cause if we sell it, we'll trigger a taxable event. And then it's work around and build around that existing position. We call them legacy positions, positions clients have held for a long time, but let's build around it. Let's make sure we're not buying more of it over here to add to the overweighting and so maybe we can balance things out. So, and that's just doing your job. So, Paul, thank you so much. We covered a lot today. It was great information. Before we wrap up today's discussion, is there any final words you'd like to share with our audience?
- I would just tell your viewers, as I tell my clients who have been in the changing market conditions, I just want to say four things that I'm telling my clients and my friends who come to me and are worried about what the market might do, even though I'm not a financial advisor, is I just say these are challenging times we're going through and to just stay calm and focused. Talk to your financial advisor, have a plan, know that you're looking for the long-term, and not to overreact any articles you might read and understand that yes, we can weather the storm. And one final thing, if anyone's interested in learning about what a daily money manager does or to find one locally or maybe they have a family member in another part of the country, the website is simple. AADMM, American Association of Daily Money Managers. So we call it AADMM for short, aadmm.com. You can go on there and you can find a daily money manager by zip code.
- Wonderful, so it's aadmm.com.
- Yes, sir.
- All right, well, Paul, thank you so much. Be safe and we'll be in touch and audience, thank you for joining our professional discussion series. It is a grouping of discussions on various topics from law, tax, finance, and healthcare. If you know this when you logged on to the sandystreambank.com website and watch today's video, we did not even ask for your name. This is a community of educational programs. I'm the host of these discussion series. I've been with the bank 21 years now and I work for our trust division. And so hopefully you might share this information with others, family, friends. You don't have to bank with us to view the programs. Also on the website is a seminar library that I host where I talk more solo about different topics of financial and estate planning issues. On those issues, on those seminars, we do ask for your name and how you heard about the event, but no one will contact you unless you ask. My name's Phil Fish. If you have any questions about Sandy Spring Trust services, please feel free to reach out to me. My contact information is at the end of today's program and there's a Contact Phil button floating around the website or you can just call the bank and ask to speak to Mr. Fish and they'll direct you to me. For those of you who bank with Sandy Spring Bank, thank you so much. We've been around since 1868. We're the largest, oldest community-based bank in the greater Washington region. And if you don't bank with us, we hope you might consider Sandy Spring Bank for any of your financial, banking, or lending needs. We'd love to be of service. Hope you're safe during these difficult times and on behalf of Sandy Spring Bank, please take care and have a wonderful day.
